1
00:00:12,270 --> 00:00:10,049
on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks

2
00:00:14,370 --> 00:00:12,280
with Victor and Wendy Zammit about their

3
00:00:17,279 --> 00:00:14,380
new book a lawyer presents the evidence

4
00:00:19,830 --> 00:00:17,289
for the afterlife let me share another

5
00:00:22,470 --> 00:00:19,840
quote from the book that I think gets at

6
00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:22,480
this it strikes home with me because as

7
00:00:27,300 --> 00:00:24,850
I mentioned to you in my email my wife

8
00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:27,310
as a forensic psychologist and gives

9
00:00:33,750 --> 00:00:31,210
testimony in court on her expertise and

10
00:00:36,180 --> 00:00:33,760
is just grilled by the other side as is

11
00:00:39,150 --> 00:00:36,190
appropriate but but here's what you and

12
00:00:41,580 --> 00:00:39,160
Wendy write in the book when materialist

13
00:00:43,729 --> 00:00:41,590
scientists attack scientists and others

14
00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:43,739
who support the paranormal the

15
00:00:48,090 --> 00:00:45,730
materialists do not allow their

16
00:00:50,970 --> 00:00:48,100
prejudices to be examined in public

17
00:00:54,060 --> 00:00:50,980
testing the credibility the prejudices

18
00:00:56,190 --> 00:00:54,070
and the degree of expertise of an expert

19
00:00:59,520 --> 00:00:56,200
witness through cross-examination is

20
00:01:02,460 --> 00:00:59,530
another role of attorneys well the thing

21
00:01:05,429 --> 00:01:02,470
is Alex in the legal process situation

22
00:01:07,980 --> 00:01:05,439
and a cross-examination the witness has

23
00:01:10,710 --> 00:01:07,990
to answer the question this is very very

24
00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:10,720
important in a courtroom situation I'd

25
00:01:15,300 --> 00:01:13,210
have to ask as I said before I ask the

26
00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:15,310
question Larry in this simple question

27
00:01:22,320 --> 00:01:19,090
what axalife evidence you came across

28
00:01:25,830 --> 00:01:22,330
you do not agree with I have 24

29
00:01:29,070 --> 00:01:25,840
different areas of afterlife evidence to

30
00:01:32,820 --> 00:01:29,080
present it not just one this is likely

31
00:01:33,570 --> 00:01:32,830
but prosecutor having 24 witnesses in a

32
00:01:47,460 --> 00:01:33,580
murder case

33
00:01:51,250 --> 00:01:49,660
welcome to skeptic oh where we explore

34
00:01:54,039 --> 00:01:51,260
controversial science with leading

35
00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:54,049
researchers thinkers and their critics

36
00:01:58,330 --> 00:01:56,090
I'm your host Alex akira-san on this

37
00:02:00,430 --> 00:01:58,340
episode I talked with a gentleman who if

38
00:02:02,499 --> 00:02:00,440
you've been following this skeptical

39
00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:02,509
movement for any time at all you've

40
00:02:08,650 --> 00:02:06,170
probably run into that is Victor Zammit

41
00:02:10,930 --> 00:02:08,660
he's a fascinating guy a longtime

42
00:02:12,729 --> 00:02:10,940
attorney in Australia along with his

43
00:02:15,070 --> 00:02:12,739
wife Wendy has done a lot of research

44
00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:15,080
into some of these topics

45
00:02:18,430 --> 00:02:16,850
they've just published a new book I

46
00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:18,440
thought it was a great time to have them

47
00:02:25,030 --> 00:02:21,170
on here's my dialogue with Victor and

48
00:02:28,090 --> 00:02:25,040
Wendy exam it today we welcome Victor

49
00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:28,100
and Wendy Zammit - skeptic Oh Victor is

50
00:02:32,380 --> 00:02:30,050
a lawyer with a distinguished legal

51
00:02:35,890 --> 00:02:32,390
career in Australia but is probably

52
00:02:37,930 --> 00:02:35,900
known to most of you as an articulate

53
00:02:40,690 --> 00:02:37,940
advocate of near-death experience

54
00:02:43,420 --> 00:02:40,700
science and for being a thorn in the

55
00:02:45,910 --> 00:02:43,430
side of skeptics and status quo

56
00:02:48,610 --> 00:02:45,920
scientist that's what Victor is known

57
00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:48,620
for Wendy Zammit who has an advanced

58
00:02:53,500 --> 00:02:50,810
degree in psychology has along with

59
00:02:56,830 --> 00:02:53,510
Victor published a new book titled a

60
00:02:58,539 --> 00:02:56,840
lawyer presents the evidence for the

61
00:03:01,600 --> 00:02:58,549
afterlife now you might have heard of

62
00:03:04,539 --> 00:03:01,610
this book before but it's just out in a

63
00:03:06,610 --> 00:03:04,549
finished form and you really need to

64
00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:06,620
check it out on Amazon or any of your

65
00:03:11,920 --> 00:03:08,570
favorite book sellers they're here today

66
00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:11,930
to tell us about the book Victor Wendy

67
00:03:16,990 --> 00:03:14,090
welcome thanks so much for joining me on

68
00:03:20,140 --> 00:03:17,000
skeptic oh good to be here Alex

69
00:03:22,449 --> 00:03:20,150
lovely to be here with you Alex great

70
00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:22,459
well the approach that you've taken in

71
00:03:27,750 --> 00:03:25,130
this book in particular you Victor as

72
00:03:32,199 --> 00:03:27,760
the title suggests is one of a lawyer

73
00:03:34,319 --> 00:03:32,209
yeah why does that perspective need to

74
00:03:36,849 --> 00:03:34,329
be brought to the table isn't this

75
00:03:38,860 --> 00:03:36,859
something for science really to hammer

76
00:03:40,569 --> 00:03:38,870
out we're talking about scientific

77
00:03:43,690 --> 00:03:40,579
evidence of the after election we leave

78
00:03:47,740 --> 00:03:43,700
this up to the scientists well Alex a

79
00:03:51,099 --> 00:03:47,750
big problem with scientists is that they

80
00:03:53,649 --> 00:03:51,109
can hide their prejudices they can hide

81
00:03:56,710 --> 00:03:53,659
their partiality there's a huge

82
00:03:58,390 --> 00:03:56,720
difference a fundament the fandom ental

83
00:04:00,759 --> 00:03:58,400
difference between

84
00:04:03,100 --> 00:04:00,769
scientific process and the legal process

85
00:04:05,319 --> 00:04:03,110
when we were dealing with the afterlife

86
00:04:07,660 --> 00:04:05,329
this is a quote from your book that I

87
00:04:10,559 --> 00:04:07,670
thought was particularly good and it

88
00:04:14,229 --> 00:04:10,569
struck me as something that really does

89
00:04:16,629 --> 00:04:14,239
uniquely qualify lawyers attorneys

90
00:04:18,789 --> 00:04:16,639
barristers to look at this this is from

91
00:04:21,219 --> 00:04:18,799
your book you say much of the evidence

92
00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:21,229
for the afterlife depends on the

93
00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:23,570
testimony of witnesses who claim to have

94
00:04:29,290 --> 00:04:26,930
had direct experiences of it assessing

95
00:04:31,659 --> 00:04:29,300
their credibility examining their

96
00:04:34,659 --> 00:04:31,669
character stability reputations and

97
00:04:36,370 --> 00:04:34,669
motives is a standard task for attorneys

98
00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:36,380
I think that's I think that's an

99
00:04:41,590 --> 00:04:38,690
interesting point because scientists

100
00:04:43,990 --> 00:04:41,600
seem to fumble over this time and time

101
00:04:47,140 --> 00:04:44,000
again that oh my gosh you can't trust

102
00:04:49,270 --> 00:04:47,150
people you can't trust their experiences

103
00:04:51,850 --> 00:04:49,280
and of course that always strikes us

104
00:04:53,710 --> 00:04:51,860
says well of course we can we we do that

105
00:04:55,540 --> 00:04:53,720
all the time we do that every day and

106
00:04:57,999 --> 00:04:55,550
then you bring it even further and say

107
00:05:00,279 --> 00:04:58,009
that lawyers are particularly skilled at

108
00:05:02,620 --> 00:05:00,289
doing that so what do you think about

109
00:05:05,350 --> 00:05:02,630
that you just said it Alex I'd like to

110
00:05:08,469 --> 00:05:05,360
come in here on that one when we look at

111
00:05:11,020 --> 00:05:08,479
what scientists can actually do so much

112
00:05:13,870 --> 00:05:11,030
of the evidence these days is coming to

113
00:05:15,129 --> 00:05:13,880
ordinary people so much of the things

114
00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:15,139
when we're talking about near-death

115
00:05:18,879 --> 00:05:16,490
experiences when we're talking

116
00:05:21,270 --> 00:05:18,889
out-of-body experiences when we're

117
00:05:24,790 --> 00:05:21,280
talking about after death contacts and

118
00:05:27,700 --> 00:05:24,800
as as we said you know in a courtroom

119
00:05:29,980 --> 00:05:27,710
this is the lawyers job the lawyers job

120
00:05:33,370 --> 00:05:29,990
is to try and work out what is this

121
00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:33,380
person's motive how credible are they do

122
00:05:40,570 --> 00:05:38,210
they have sufficient objectivity and I

123
00:05:42,939 --> 00:05:40,580
would agree with it with Victor on this

124
00:05:45,550 --> 00:05:42,949
one that these are definitely skills

125
00:05:48,129 --> 00:05:45,560
that an experienced courtroom lawyer has

126
00:05:50,710 --> 00:05:48,139
well I think you both do an excellent

127
00:05:52,379 --> 00:05:50,720
job in the book of laying out that

128
00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:52,389
argument in a very structured

129
00:05:57,460 --> 00:05:55,490
easy-to-follow way that winds up very

130
00:06:00,100 --> 00:05:57,470
being very compelling and I think when

131
00:06:01,510 --> 00:06:00,110
we contrast that with the skeptical

132
00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:01,520
position it just needs to be brought out

133
00:06:05,620 --> 00:06:03,770
and examined because for the longest

134
00:06:07,830 --> 00:06:05,630
time I think that the skeptics their

135
00:06:10,330 --> 00:06:07,840
basic position is reminds me of the old

136
00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:10,340
Groucho Marx quote you know who are you

137
00:06:16,180 --> 00:06:12,050
going to believe me or your

138
00:06:18,399 --> 00:06:16,190
lying eyes people who say hey I really

139
00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:18,409
had this experience and the scientists

140
00:06:21,700 --> 00:06:20,090
are coming along and saying no no no you

141
00:06:23,439 --> 00:06:21,710
didn't because of this and because of

142
00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:23,449
this and because of that and we look at

143
00:06:27,399 --> 00:06:24,530
these people and we say wait a minute

144
00:06:30,430 --> 00:06:27,409
these people and every other aspect of

145
00:06:32,740 --> 00:06:30,440
their life are believable trustworthy

146
00:06:35,170 --> 00:06:32,750
reliable no if they're really having

147
00:06:37,270 --> 00:06:35,180
this experience or not why would we not

148
00:06:40,149 --> 00:06:37,280
believe them here so it's kind of an

149
00:06:42,700 --> 00:06:40,159
interesting situation let me share

150
00:06:45,490 --> 00:06:42,710
another quote from the book that I think

151
00:06:47,379 --> 00:06:45,500
gets at this in another way and it

152
00:06:49,749 --> 00:06:47,389
strikes home with me because as I

153
00:06:51,969 --> 00:06:49,759
mentioned to you and my email my wife as

154
00:06:55,899 --> 00:06:51,979
a forensic psychologist and gives

155
00:06:58,420 --> 00:06:55,909
testimony in court on her expertise and

156
00:07:00,879 --> 00:06:58,430
is just grilled by the other side as is

157
00:07:03,850 --> 00:07:00,889
appropriate but but here's what you and

158
00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:03,860
Wendy write in the book when materialist

159
00:07:08,589 --> 00:07:06,289
scientists attack scientists and others

160
00:07:10,390 --> 00:07:08,599
who support the paranormal the

161
00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:10,400
materialists do not allow their

162
00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:12,770
prejudices to be examined in public

163
00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:15,650
testing the credibility the prejudices

164
00:07:20,860 --> 00:07:18,770
and the degree of expertise of an expert

165
00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:20,870
witness through cross-examination is

166
00:07:26,140 --> 00:07:24,050
another role of attorneys because they

167
00:07:29,170 --> 00:07:26,150
know that the outcome of many trials

168
00:07:32,110 --> 00:07:29,180
depends on the testimony of such an

169
00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:32,120
expert witness tell us about this

170
00:07:38,620 --> 00:07:36,050
cross-examination process and what you

171
00:07:41,559 --> 00:07:38,630
think would be revealed if we had the

172
00:07:44,050 --> 00:07:41,569
opportunity to cross-examine some of

173
00:07:46,059 --> 00:07:44,060
these folks who are so dead set against

174
00:07:48,730 --> 00:07:46,069
pardon the pun near-death experience

175
00:07:50,589 --> 00:07:48,740
science well the thing is Alex in the

176
00:07:51,670 --> 00:07:50,599
legal process situation and a

177
00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:51,680
cross-examination

178
00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:54,770
the witness has to answer the question

179
00:07:59,619 --> 00:07:56,930
this is very very important in a

180
00:08:02,140 --> 00:07:59,629
courtroom situation I'd have to ask as I

181
00:08:04,930 --> 00:08:02,150
said before I ask the question Larry in

182
00:08:07,719 --> 00:08:04,940
this simple question what axalife

183
00:08:11,550 --> 00:08:07,729
evidence you came across you do not

184
00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:11,560
agree with I have 24 different areas of

185
00:08:18,730 --> 00:08:15,770
afterlife evidence to present not just

186
00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:18,740
one this is likely but prosecutor having

187
00:08:25,390 --> 00:08:22,250
24 witnesses in a murder case now why

188
00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:25,400
should the prosecutor call only one

189
00:08:32,050 --> 00:08:28,690
yes when he can goal he can call it 2000

190
00:08:35,399 --> 00:08:32,060
witnesses well very good and Victor and

191
00:08:38,380 --> 00:08:35,409
Wendy let's go over a couple of those

192
00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:38,390
eyewitnesses that you have in a lawyer

193
00:08:43,089 --> 00:08:40,450
presents the evidence for the afterlife

194
00:08:45,610 --> 00:08:43,099
that you have quite a few as you

195
00:08:47,019 --> 00:08:45,620
mentioned a couple of them jumped out at

196
00:08:48,850 --> 00:08:47,029
me that I wanted to share with the

197
00:08:51,850 --> 00:08:48,860
audience and kind of get your additional

198
00:08:55,140 --> 00:08:51,860
feedback on so number 10

199
00:08:58,510 --> 00:08:55,150
some people have group near-death

200
00:09:00,730 --> 00:08:58,520
experiences so here we're talking about

201
00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:00,740
maybe a group of people that all have

202
00:09:04,690 --> 00:09:02,450
the same experience tell us about that

203
00:09:07,150 --> 00:09:04,700
and why that's important well I'll come

204
00:09:11,340 --> 00:09:07,160
in on that one the one that I can think

205
00:09:14,170 --> 00:09:11,350
of is the group of firefighters who had

206
00:09:16,540 --> 00:09:14,180
they were all unconscious at the same

207
00:09:19,540 --> 00:09:16,550
time in a fire and they got to the other

208
00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:19,550
side and when they came back they

209
00:09:25,180 --> 00:09:22,490
actually shared the things that had

210
00:09:26,710 --> 00:09:25,190
happened on the other side to me that

211
00:09:30,310 --> 00:09:26,720
this is really interesting and

212
00:09:32,769 --> 00:09:30,320
particularly why I like this area of

213
00:09:35,620 --> 00:09:32,779
evidence is it's also been repeated in

214
00:09:38,470 --> 00:09:35,630
the Monroe Institute experiments you're

215
00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:38,480
probably aware Alex of that Robert

216
00:09:44,710 --> 00:09:42,050
Monroe had what he worked with groups of

217
00:09:48,610 --> 00:09:44,720
explorers who would go out of their body

218
00:09:50,110 --> 00:09:48,620
and would coordinate and would meet out

219
00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:50,120
of their body and then would come back

220
00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:52,610
and they would discuss exactly what had

221
00:09:58,570 --> 00:09:55,130
happened to me that kind of verification

222
00:10:00,690 --> 00:09:58,580
is absolutely mind-blowing I think it is

223
00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:00,700
- you know and it's also a research

224
00:10:06,130 --> 00:10:04,010
interest of dr. Raymond moody of course

225
00:10:08,290 --> 00:10:06,140
who really pioneered this whole field

226
00:10:09,970 --> 00:10:08,300
and this idea of group near-death

227
00:10:11,980 --> 00:10:09,980
experiences so I think you're really

228
00:10:12,850 --> 00:10:11,990
onto something there let's move on to

229
00:10:15,220 --> 00:10:12,860
number 11

230
00:10:17,170 --> 00:10:15,230
some people have near-death experiences

231
00:10:19,090 --> 00:10:17,180
when there's nothing physically wrong

232
00:10:20,710 --> 00:10:19,100
with them it's interesting because when

233
00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:20,720
I've talked to skeptics think sometimes

234
00:10:25,990 --> 00:10:22,730
want to turn this around and say well

235
00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:26,000
gee not everyone has the same symptoms

236
00:10:30,670 --> 00:10:28,250
or the same medical condition when they

237
00:10:33,010 --> 00:10:30,680
have a near-death experience and really

238
00:10:36,069 --> 00:10:33,020
I mean that's more evidence for the

239
00:10:38,860 --> 00:10:36,079
unique medical mystery that this really

240
00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:38,870
is but tell us more well I'll come in on

241
00:10:41,590 --> 00:10:39,410
that one is

242
00:10:46,030 --> 00:10:41,600
well because my particular interest is

243
00:10:48,519 --> 00:10:46,040
in peak experiences and if you go right

244
00:10:50,410 --> 00:10:48,529
back to Abraham Maslow he was really

245
00:10:53,740 --> 00:10:50,420
into this sort of thing

246
00:10:56,769 --> 00:10:53,750
and Charles tart has put together the

247
00:11:00,400 --> 00:10:56,779
the website taste which is about

248
00:11:02,379 --> 00:11:00,410
scientific scientists who have these

249
00:11:05,860 --> 00:11:02,389
experiences of expanded consciousness

250
00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:05,870
which are virtually the same as many of

251
00:11:12,819 --> 00:11:09,290
the near-death experiences this there

252
00:11:17,079 --> 00:11:12,829
are so many accounts of people who have

253
00:11:19,329 --> 00:11:17,089
just had absolutely spontaneously had

254
00:11:23,050 --> 00:11:19,339
the same experiences as near-death

255
00:11:25,569 --> 00:11:23,060
experiences you can find you can find

256
00:11:29,740 --> 00:11:25,579
these on Kevin Williams website

257
00:11:32,470 --> 00:11:29,750
near-death calm he has literally case

258
00:11:35,410 --> 00:11:32,480
after case after case people just

259
00:11:38,230 --> 00:11:35,420
sitting down to meditate and they find

260
00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:38,240
themselves having an out-of-body

261
00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:40,730
experience a mystical experience and

262
00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:42,610
experience of expanded consciousness

263
00:11:48,629 --> 00:11:45,730
which is virtually the same thing so we

264
00:11:51,910 --> 00:11:48,639
clearly it is not just a brain

265
00:11:54,879 --> 00:11:51,920
misfunction right and obviously what

266
00:11:57,309 --> 00:11:54,889
we're contrasting this with is the

267
00:12:00,009 --> 00:11:57,319
important medical work that's been done

268
00:12:02,590 --> 00:12:00,019
in hospital that shows that people who

269
00:12:04,629 --> 00:12:02,600
are brain dead and we know that because

270
00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:04,639
they many times have suffered a cardiac

271
00:12:09,370 --> 00:12:07,490
arrest and are being resuscitated and

272
00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:09,380
there hasn't been any blood flow to the

273
00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:11,569
brain so we have this situation where

274
00:12:15,579 --> 00:12:13,970
people have no brain activity they are

275
00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:15,589
brain dead we know they're brain-dead

276
00:12:20,470 --> 00:12:18,170
and yet they're experiencing something

277
00:12:22,990 --> 00:12:20,480
that's very similar to these people who

278
00:12:25,749 --> 00:12:23,000
are having these peak experiences with

279
00:12:29,290 --> 00:12:25,759
no medical emergency so it's really is

280
00:12:32,799 --> 00:12:29,300
quite a mystery and at the very least it

281
00:12:35,769 --> 00:12:32,809
certainly falsifies this theory that you

282
00:12:38,410 --> 00:12:35,779
are this biological robot that is purely

283
00:12:40,869 --> 00:12:38,420
a function of your brain that just

284
00:12:43,179 --> 00:12:40,879
doesn't hold anymore when you look at

285
00:12:47,710 --> 00:12:43,189
this evidence does it not only that I

286
00:12:49,329 --> 00:12:47,720
mean you mentioned the experiences when

287
00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:49,339
the brain is dead I mean the classic

288
00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:51,050
case so that of course is the Pam

289
00:12:56,260 --> 00:12:53,450
Reynolds case I mean I

290
00:12:58,810 --> 00:12:56,270
except what happened there when Pam

291
00:13:01,900 --> 00:12:58,820
Reynolds when the surgeons were able to

292
00:13:04,660 --> 00:13:01,910
to stop the brain from functioning they

293
00:13:08,260 --> 00:13:04,670
stopped the heart from beating she was

294
00:13:10,300 --> 00:13:08,270
dead for one full hour and yet she had a

295
00:13:12,490 --> 00:13:10,310
full-blown near-death experience I mean

296
00:13:14,860 --> 00:13:12,500
that shows that near-death experiences

297
00:13:18,340 --> 00:13:14,870
are real when do you mention a minute

298
00:13:20,140 --> 00:13:18,350
ago dr. Charles tart who I think is done

299
00:13:22,090 --> 00:13:20,150
some fantastic work in this area he

300
00:13:25,210 --> 00:13:22,100
wrote an excellent book a few years ago

301
00:13:28,210 --> 00:13:25,220
titled the end of materialism and he

302
00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:28,220
lays out very convincingly the evidence

303
00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:29,930
for what a lot of people call SCI

304
00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:33,410
telepathy clairvoyance precognition all

305
00:13:37,420 --> 00:13:36,050
these things that sometimes fall into

306
00:13:40,110 --> 00:13:37,430
this category we just lump them together

307
00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:40,120
and call them sight why is that

308
00:13:45,250 --> 00:13:43,490
important for your case for an afterlife

309
00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:45,260
because you do include that in the book

310
00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:47,690
what is the connection there okay well

311
00:13:53,350 --> 00:13:51,170
the whole point is that psi basically

312
00:13:58,720 --> 00:13:53,360
when we're looking at clairvoyant sclera

313
00:14:01,930 --> 00:13:58,730
and communication bit telepathy when you

314
00:14:05,050 --> 00:14:01,940
are working with mediums what medium all

315
00:14:08,050 --> 00:14:05,060
mediums have first of all have to have

316
00:14:10,630 --> 00:14:08,060
very good abilities in telepathy and

317
00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:10,640
clairvoyance they have to be able to

318
00:14:16,680 --> 00:14:12,530
have those psychic abilities as a

319
00:14:19,930 --> 00:14:16,690
baseline and what we are arguing is that

320
00:14:21,850 --> 00:14:19,940
they're the same abilities except that

321
00:14:25,450 --> 00:14:21,860
the abilities are directed to a

322
00:14:29,140 --> 00:14:25,460
different dimension if we could if we

323
00:14:31,750 --> 00:14:29,150
can explain if we if we can show through

324
00:14:36,370 --> 00:14:31,760
laboratory experiments as we have done

325
00:14:38,910 --> 00:14:36,380
that PSI abilities exist then it's and

326
00:14:42,700 --> 00:14:38,920
makes it's a first step to understanding

327
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:42,710
how these abilities are then used in a

328
00:14:46,570 --> 00:14:44,810
slightly different direction let me

329
00:14:48,370 --> 00:14:46,580
switch gear is only slightly here

330
00:14:51,970 --> 00:14:48,380
because you also talked about in the

331
00:14:55,150 --> 00:14:51,980
book remote viewing and you remind us of

332
00:14:57,310 --> 00:14:55,160
this rather amazing quote from former

333
00:14:59,770 --> 00:14:57,320
United States President Jimmy Carter

334
00:15:02,230 --> 00:14:59,780
that he gave in an interview and here's

335
00:15:05,110 --> 00:15:02,240
what he said he said he witnessed a

336
00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:05,120
session where this remote viewer went

337
00:15:09,329 --> 00:15:06,850
into a trance and he said

338
00:15:12,150 --> 00:15:09,339
while she was in a trance she gave us

339
00:15:14,429 --> 00:15:12,160
some longitude and latitude figures we

340
00:15:17,909 --> 00:15:14,439
focused our satellite cameras on that

341
00:15:20,119 --> 00:15:17,919
point and the lost plane was there so

342
00:15:24,090 --> 00:15:20,129
here first of all this is astounding

343
00:15:25,559 --> 00:15:24,100
because in a number of respects but one

344
00:15:28,139 --> 00:15:25,569
of the ways it's astounding is that

345
00:15:31,109 --> 00:15:28,149
we've had this misinformation

346
00:15:34,259 --> 00:15:31,119
disinformation campaign for the longest

347
00:15:36,059 --> 00:15:34,269
time against psy and it's always come

348
00:15:37,529 --> 00:15:36,069
down to well know what doesn't we Brenda

349
00:15:40,229 --> 00:15:37,539
really did it it was never really

350
00:15:42,569 --> 00:15:40,239
successful and here we have with the

351
00:15:44,069 --> 00:15:42,579
highest ranking government official in

352
00:15:48,509 --> 00:15:44,079
the United States coming out and say

353
00:15:51,299 --> 00:15:48,519
yeah it was real I was right how can we

354
00:15:53,729 --> 00:15:51,309
really approach this whole area of the

355
00:15:58,139 --> 00:15:53,739
limits of consciousness when we have

356
00:16:00,629 --> 00:15:58,149
this official wall of skeptical nonsense

357
00:16:02,340 --> 00:16:00,639
that's out there Rupert Sheldrake was

358
00:16:04,159 --> 00:16:02,350
very interesting on this he said quite

359
00:16:06,719 --> 00:16:04,169
recently that science is becoming

360
00:16:09,090 --> 00:16:06,729
schizophrenic and I love the way he

361
00:16:12,949 --> 00:16:09,100
talked about this that the vast majority

362
00:16:16,409 --> 00:16:12,959
of people and as he was saying have had

363
00:16:19,499 --> 00:16:16,419
experiences of telepathy of after death

364
00:16:21,299 --> 00:16:19,509
contacts and what's happening is science

365
00:16:23,819 --> 00:16:21,309
is actually coming into disrepute

366
00:16:27,719 --> 00:16:23,829
because so many people are saying look I

367
00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:27,729
don't care what you say I have had these

368
00:16:35,129 --> 00:16:30,850
experiences and I know that they're real

369
00:16:37,109 --> 00:16:35,139
and more and more I am in our research

370
00:16:41,299 --> 00:16:37,119
we're finding that more and more people

371
00:16:43,919 --> 00:16:41,309
are really going with their own

372
00:16:48,989 --> 00:16:43,929
experiences rather than listening to

373
00:16:52,079 --> 00:16:48,999
scientists yeah I I totally second that

374
00:16:55,409 --> 00:16:52,089
actually yeah I tell you this Alex

375
00:16:59,399 --> 00:16:55,419
I I experienced remote viewing myself

376
00:17:01,889 --> 00:16:59,409
and nobody can tell me it doesn't exist

377
00:17:04,499 --> 00:17:01,899
my readings are readings Randy and I

378
00:17:07,740 --> 00:17:04,509
will read about this and a great deal we

379
00:17:10,350 --> 00:17:07,750
find China is more I'd say China is more

380
00:17:13,110 --> 00:17:10,360
advanced in remote viewing than any

381
00:17:14,669 --> 00:17:13,120
other country in the world today yeah

382
00:17:17,100 --> 00:17:14,679
and that opens up a whole bunch of other

383
00:17:19,710 --> 00:17:17,110
is let me add a throw at another little

384
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:19,720
story about that I had a chance to

385
00:17:24,540 --> 00:17:20,530
interview

386
00:17:26,939 --> 00:17:24,550
Joe mechanical who is no you know

387
00:17:29,370 --> 00:17:26,949
psychic spy number one for the United

388
00:17:32,310 --> 00:17:29,380
States as part of the Stargate program

389
00:17:33,750 --> 00:17:32,320
that a lot of people know about but a

390
00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:33,760
lot of people don't know that he's also

391
00:17:38,820 --> 00:17:36,970
a near-death experiencer he had his

392
00:17:40,530 --> 00:17:38,830
near-death experience while he was an

393
00:17:42,450 --> 00:17:40,540
army intelligence officer in East

394
00:17:44,940 --> 00:17:42,460
Germany and it was probably the result

395
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:44,950
of an assassination attempt but what was

396
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:47,410
interesting is he comes out of this

397
00:17:51,690 --> 00:17:49,930
near-death experience classic near-death

398
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:51,700
experience he's above as bada he doesn't

399
00:17:55,830 --> 00:17:52,810
even know what's going on

400
00:17:58,650 --> 00:17:55,840
seize him seize his mates drive him to

401
00:18:02,070 --> 00:17:58,660
the hospital and bang down the door then

402
00:18:04,350 --> 00:18:02,080
he has this extraordinary divine

403
00:18:06,690 --> 00:18:04,360
experience this meeting with what he

404
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:06,700
feels like his god and he comes out of

405
00:18:10,950 --> 00:18:08,890
this and he's immediately interrogated

406
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:10,960
by army intelligence because that's his

407
00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:11,890
job and they want to know everything

408
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:13,930
that happened and he tells him the whole

409
00:18:17,580 --> 00:18:15,730
story about his near-death experience

410
00:18:20,910 --> 00:18:17,590
now here's what's interesting fast

411
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:20,920
forward a few years later he's sent to

412
00:18:25,650 --> 00:18:23,170
Stanford Research Institute where

413
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:25,660
Russell Targ and Hal put-off are doing

414
00:18:30,300 --> 00:18:28,930
these remote viewing projects and here's

415
00:18:33,030 --> 00:18:30,310
the part that I thought was amazing

416
00:18:36,570 --> 00:18:33,040
he says they go into his permanent file

417
00:18:39,450 --> 00:18:36,580
his military file and they pull out this

418
00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:39,460
sealed thing that says not to be opened

419
00:18:44,670 --> 00:18:41,650
by anyone except the commander of

420
00:18:46,830 --> 00:18:44,680
intelligence and therein is the report

421
00:18:52,830 --> 00:18:46,840
of his near-death experience and a copy

422
00:18:55,110 --> 00:18:52,840
of Raymond Moody's book know what this

423
00:18:57,090 --> 00:18:55,120
tells me and how it relates to what

424
00:19:00,510 --> 00:18:57,100
we're both talking about here is that

425
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:00,520
the military knew about the reality of

426
00:19:05,190 --> 00:19:02,530
near-death experience knew its

427
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:05,200
connection to psychic experience and

428
00:19:10,410 --> 00:19:08,410
extended human consciousness and yet to

429
00:19:13,860 --> 00:19:10,420
connect it back to our skeptical friends

430
00:19:16,170 --> 00:19:13,870
when they wanted to kind of put out the

431
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:16,180
disinformation campaign they went and

432
00:19:21,510 --> 00:19:18,610
hired a skeptic like they hired ray

433
00:19:23,910 --> 00:19:21,520
Hyman from University of Oregon to write

434
00:19:25,650 --> 00:19:23,920
this report and say that Stargate oh it

435
00:19:26,460 --> 00:19:25,660
never happened it never produced any

436
00:19:30,419 --> 00:19:26,470
results

437
00:19:32,970 --> 00:19:30,429
so you know back to this point of how

438
00:19:33,870 --> 00:19:32,980
can we ever really get to the bottom of

439
00:19:36,260 --> 00:19:33,880
this

440
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:36,270
when there is such an organized

441
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:40,330
orchestrated effort to dis inform to

442
00:19:45,780 --> 00:19:42,970
miss inform people about the reality of

443
00:19:49,260 --> 00:19:45,790
this well as I said before these

444
00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:49,270
scientists who are targeting the

445
00:19:56,850 --> 00:19:53,650
paranormal researchers are getting

446
00:19:59,010 --> 00:19:56,860
funded by big corporations it's it's in

447
00:20:04,500 --> 00:19:59,020
the interest of big corporations not to

448
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:04,510
allow this paranormal to to be accepted

449
00:20:09,750 --> 00:20:08,290
by my people everywhere and I think Alex

450
00:20:12,450 --> 00:20:09,760
you're onto something about a paid

451
00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:12,460
disinformation campaign I mean we're

452
00:20:18,060 --> 00:20:15,130
seeing now very clearly that there has

453
00:20:22,020 --> 00:20:18,070
been a a a very serious disinformation

454
00:20:25,410 --> 00:20:22,030
campaign about UFOs and it would not

455
00:20:27,930 --> 00:20:25,420
surprise us if that was extended to the

456
00:20:31,050 --> 00:20:27,940
whole of psychic phenomena obviously

457
00:20:34,290 --> 00:20:31,060
they didn't they don't want people to

458
00:20:36,510 --> 00:20:34,300
know just how powerful this is yeah and

459
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:36,520
I've always thought that some people

460
00:20:40,290 --> 00:20:38,650
take that too far and think that there's

461
00:20:42,030 --> 00:20:40,300
some smoky room where all these people

462
00:20:43,710 --> 00:20:42,040
are making these decisions I don't think

463
00:20:46,170 --> 00:20:43,720
it really has to go that way there's

464
00:20:48,210 --> 00:20:46,180
enough people who are naturally inclined

465
00:20:50,130 --> 00:20:48,220
as you point out in the book and we'll

466
00:20:53,550 --> 00:20:50,140
talk about that in a minute to have a

467
00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:53,560
strong bias against this because it's so

468
00:20:57,870 --> 00:20:55,690
contradicts their worldview that it

469
00:21:01,200 --> 00:20:57,880
really doesn't take much for someone to

470
00:21:03,810 --> 00:21:01,210
shape this information in particular way

471
00:21:06,180 --> 00:21:03,820
nudge it this way nudge it that way and

472
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:06,190
as far as pushing it I mean I think at

473
00:21:10,530 --> 00:21:08,170
the simplest level these folks are

474
00:21:13,050 --> 00:21:10,540
interested in defending the status quo I

475
00:21:15,180 --> 00:21:13,060
mean they just don't want to change even

476
00:21:17,610 --> 00:21:15,190
if they aren't sure what the change

477
00:21:20,250 --> 00:21:17,620
would be they're like let's just kind of

478
00:21:22,500 --> 00:21:20,260
keep the wheels on the track here and

479
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:22,510
keep things moving along so we can

480
00:21:26,460 --> 00:21:25,210
continue doing what we do but I want to

481
00:21:28,890 --> 00:21:26,470
totally switch gears for a minute

482
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:28,900
and talk about a topic that I think is a

483
00:21:33,510 --> 00:21:31,570
little bit harder to wrestle down

484
00:21:35,550 --> 00:21:33,520
because I don't know if we're in total

485
00:21:38,490 --> 00:21:35,560
sync on this and you mentioned in your

486
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:38,500
book that your book is not religious but

487
00:21:43,170 --> 00:21:40,450
at the same point you know religion

488
00:21:44,910 --> 00:21:43,180
plays such a dominant role in West

489
00:21:46,620 --> 00:21:44,920
Western culture and I hear from people

490
00:21:47,330 --> 00:21:46,630
in Europe all the time and they go no no

491
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:47,340
no and I

492
00:21:55,010 --> 00:21:50,730
say gee you know if you fail to see how

493
00:21:58,190 --> 00:21:55,020
deeply ingrained the judeo-christian

494
00:21:59,870 --> 00:21:58,200
Islamic Adriatic tradition is and

495
00:22:03,710 --> 00:21:59,880
everything we do then you're just not

496
00:22:05,540 --> 00:22:03,720
paying attention so given all that can

497
00:22:08,570 --> 00:22:05,550
we really ignore the religious

498
00:22:12,500 --> 00:22:08,580
implications of what nd E's are telling

499
00:22:15,170 --> 00:22:12,510
us I'm not saying in the book that we

500
00:22:18,140 --> 00:22:15,180
should ignore a religion I'm not saying

501
00:22:19,610 --> 00:22:18,150
that what that religions are wrong about

502
00:22:22,910 --> 00:22:19,620
the afterlife

503
00:22:25,550 --> 00:22:22,920
I almost said that as a matter of fact I

504
00:22:27,730 --> 00:22:25,560
had Catholic priests saying gee that's

505
00:22:30,860 --> 00:22:27,740
great that you you are giving something

506
00:22:33,020 --> 00:22:30,870
presenting scientific proof that the

507
00:22:36,380 --> 00:22:33,030
afterlife exists this is great for us

508
00:22:37,940 --> 00:22:36,390
because it makes us feel good well we

509
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:37,950
have now proved that they have to love

510
00:22:42,980 --> 00:22:40,290
does it's not just theory not just

511
00:22:45,410 --> 00:22:42,990
belief Alex let me come in on this one I

512
00:22:47,780 --> 00:22:45,420
think what what we take in the book is

513
00:22:52,270 --> 00:22:47,790
the fact that all religions began with

514
00:22:53,540 --> 00:22:52,280
psychic phenomena and these things made

515
00:23:02,750 --> 00:22:53,550
experiences

516
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:02,760
the naturally occurring things which

517
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:05,610
came about and which people then

518
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:08,850
codified into the various religions but

519
00:23:15,020 --> 00:23:11,850
if we go back to the actual experiences

520
00:23:17,390 --> 00:23:15,030
which generated these religions I

521
00:23:20,270 --> 00:23:17,400
believe we can go back to those and

522
00:23:23,540 --> 00:23:20,280
those are occurring today not just in

523
00:23:26,930 --> 00:23:23,550
the past fair enough and I would agree

524
00:23:29,660 --> 00:23:26,940
with you I just think we also have to be

525
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:29,670
upfront in acknowledging that there are

526
00:23:34,730 --> 00:23:31,890
a lot of people who are going to find

527
00:23:37,310 --> 00:23:34,740
conflict with the near-death experience

528
00:23:39,980 --> 00:23:37,320
science approaching it just head-on like

529
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:39,990
you are without whitewashing it or

530
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:41,490
trying to fit it one way or another and

531
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:43,050
their religious beliefs

532
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:45,090
I mean this blows out of the water the

533
00:23:51,430 --> 00:23:47,850
primacy of Christianity forget it if you

534
00:23:55,460 --> 00:23:51,440
think Christianity is the only way to

535
00:23:57,740 --> 00:23:55,470
experience the divine then you are not

536
00:23:59,780 --> 00:23:57,750
going to be comfortable with the body of

537
00:24:01,220 --> 00:23:59,790
near-death experience it just directly

538
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:01,230
contradicts that there

539
00:24:07,070 --> 00:24:03,770
no way around it there's something most

540
00:24:10,669 --> 00:24:07,080
fundamental that what one has to accept

541
00:24:14,060 --> 00:24:10,679
that mediums for centuries have told us

542
00:24:16,070 --> 00:24:14,070
that we have a duplicate body of our

543
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:16,080
physical body we have a duplicate

544
00:24:23,090 --> 00:24:19,410
spiritual etheric body so that when we

545
00:24:25,190 --> 00:24:23,100
cross over the physical body is is dies

546
00:24:28,340 --> 00:24:25,200
and it's burns like like an old coat

547
00:24:31,610 --> 00:24:28,350
right but the the the etheric spiritual

548
00:24:34,159 --> 00:24:31,620
body continues and in the afterlife

549
00:24:37,490 --> 00:24:34,169
now that's very important because this

550
00:24:40,130 --> 00:24:37,500
is what NDE is about that with that

551
00:24:42,830 --> 00:24:40,140
spiritual that etheric spiritual body

552
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:42,840
comes out of the physical body when

553
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:45,210
there is a near-death experience Wendy

554
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:46,530
did you want to add anything to that I

555
00:24:51,020 --> 00:24:48,650
think you're talking about

556
00:24:54,610 --> 00:24:51,030
fundamentalist Christians that the kind

557
00:24:59,539 --> 00:24:54,620
of people who really believe that

558
00:25:01,669 --> 00:24:59,549
anything other than Christianity is not

559
00:25:03,710 --> 00:25:01,679
worth anything but I think you'll find

560
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:03,720
that the the majority of Christians

561
00:25:08,900 --> 00:25:06,690
these days are taking a much broader

562
00:25:11,690 --> 00:25:08,910
view yeah I really think the

563
00:25:18,350 --> 00:25:11,700
fundamentalists are in a minority well I

564
00:25:20,419 --> 00:25:18,360
wish I wish that were true I have to

565
00:25:23,030 --> 00:25:20,429
tell you I mean I live in a very I live

566
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:23,040
in a very liberal part of the United

567
00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:25,890
States in Southern California and up

568
00:25:31,330 --> 00:25:29,130
until about a year ago we used to attend

569
00:25:34,210 --> 00:25:31,340
me and my family used to attend a local

570
00:25:37,370 --> 00:25:34,220
Presbyterian kind of very mainstream

571
00:25:38,330 --> 00:25:37,380
liberal Protestant denomination even

572
00:25:40,549 --> 00:25:38,340
though we're not Christians

573
00:25:44,150 --> 00:25:40,559
I just think God shows up you know

574
00:25:48,530 --> 00:25:44,160
wherever you want but no they are not

575
00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:48,540
they they are not as a whole open they

576
00:25:56,180 --> 00:25:53,130
are very locked into certain values

577
00:25:58,970 --> 00:25:56,190
certain beliefs into the inerrancy of

578
00:26:00,770 --> 00:25:58,980
Scripture so yeah it's nice to think

579
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:00,780
that but I really think that the

580
00:26:06,919 --> 00:26:03,570
majority of Christians would be

581
00:26:09,020 --> 00:26:06,929
welcoming in a very selective way of the

582
00:26:11,210 --> 00:26:09,030
near-death experience message and I

583
00:26:13,460 --> 00:26:11,220
think there's another level beyond that

584
00:26:14,780 --> 00:26:13,470
in terms of doing the kind of work that

585
00:26:17,590 --> 00:26:14,790
you all have done in

586
00:26:19,850 --> 00:26:17,600
your book and really getting down to

587
00:26:23,330 --> 00:26:19,860
expanding our view of what consciousness

588
00:26:25,070 --> 00:26:23,340
is and and being willing to go all the

589
00:26:27,110 --> 00:26:25,080
different places that you go in terms of

590
00:26:28,910 --> 00:26:27,120
you know what about mediumship like you

591
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:28,920
talked so much about in the book what

592
00:26:33,860 --> 00:26:31,410
about wrote this remote viewing this and

593
00:26:35,090 --> 00:26:33,870
these other psychic abilities I think

594
00:26:37,730 --> 00:26:35,100
there's a lot of people that are still

595
00:26:40,100 --> 00:26:37,740
reluctant to go there or even the UFO

596
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:40,110
phenomenon which i think is somehow

597
00:26:44,660 --> 00:26:42,810
related to this extended human

598
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:44,670
consciousness that we're talking about

599
00:26:50,390 --> 00:26:47,010
again as you move further and further

600
00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:50,400
out I think you narrow down the audience

601
00:26:56,030 --> 00:26:53,370
among the believer crowd that are

602
00:26:58,130 --> 00:26:56,040
willing to go there my experience is not

603
00:27:00,890 --> 00:26:58,140
so much with Protestant religion in

604
00:27:03,770 --> 00:27:00,900
extreme it's more with Catholics and a

605
00:27:06,860 --> 00:27:03,780
huge number of ethics have become very

606
00:27:08,660 --> 00:27:06,870
very comfortable with mediumship it's

607
00:27:10,580 --> 00:27:08,670
really interesting if you actually

608
00:27:12,890 --> 00:27:10,590
actually look at the number of Catholics

609
00:27:15,770 --> 00:27:12,900
I'm talking about people like John

610
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:15,780
Edward who and some of the other mediums

611
00:27:21,770 --> 00:27:19,050
who are very very comfortable moving

612
00:27:25,100 --> 00:27:21,780
between mediumship and Catholicism it's

613
00:27:27,830 --> 00:27:25,110
amazing how many people within the

614
00:27:30,470 --> 00:27:27,840
Catholic Church happily go to Mass on

615
00:27:33,260 --> 00:27:30,480
Sunday and then go on to a spiritualist

616
00:27:36,290 --> 00:27:33,270
service or go along and consult a medium

617
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:36,300
during the week finally I want to return

618
00:27:43,130 --> 00:27:39,210
to the topic of the skeptics because

619
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:43,140
after you have been a tireless critic of

620
00:27:47,060 --> 00:27:45,570
the sceptical nonsense that we've seen

621
00:27:49,010 --> 00:27:47,070
and one of the things that I came across

622
00:27:52,310 --> 00:27:49,020
on your website which you do have an

623
00:27:56,090 --> 00:27:52,320
excellent website at Victor's amacom but

624
00:27:59,060 --> 00:27:56,100
was the nine reasons why it's a waste of

625
00:28:01,160 --> 00:27:59,070
time to argue with closed-minded

626
00:28:03,620 --> 00:28:01,170
skeptics and I got quite a kick out of

627
00:28:06,740 --> 00:28:03,630
this and again we can't go over all nine

628
00:28:09,140 --> 00:28:06,750
but I did want to touch on two of them

629
00:28:12,590 --> 00:28:09,150
number one and number nine let's start

630
00:28:15,650 --> 00:28:12,600
with number one rationalization through

631
00:28:17,510 --> 00:28:15,660
cognitive dissidence and you know what

632
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:17,520
what intrigues me here is you know this

633
00:28:21,380 --> 00:28:19,410
idea of cognitive dissonance is

634
00:28:25,070 --> 00:28:21,390
something that gets thrown around a lot

635
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:25,080
but it's really very real in a way that

636
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:26,610
people don't understand I have

637
00:28:30,770 --> 00:28:28,650
experiences myself in

638
00:28:33,740 --> 00:28:30,780
interviewing some very well-known well

639
00:28:36,470 --> 00:28:33,750
credentialed scientists who just freaked

640
00:28:39,380 --> 00:28:36,480
out when they're really confronted with

641
00:28:43,460 --> 00:28:39,390
evidence that challenges their worldview

642
00:28:46,910 --> 00:28:43,470
tell us about your experience with this

643
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:46,920
yeah well cognitive dissonance is this

644
00:28:53,540 --> 00:28:51,090
is a defense when a person has deeply

645
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:53,550
entrenched beliefs let's say a skeptic a

646
00:28:59,450 --> 00:28:56,250
deeply entrenched beliefs that there is

647
00:29:02,380 --> 00:28:59,460
no afterlife for example now if I come

648
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:02,390
along and and and explain to him the

649
00:29:07,610 --> 00:29:04,770
evidence for the afterlife twenty four

650
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:07,620
of them that which people found it

651
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:10,890
impossible to revive but what happens to

652
00:29:16,490 --> 00:29:14,250
to that skeptic he tries to rationalize

653
00:29:18,380 --> 00:29:16,500
his beliefs this is because the

654
00:29:20,930 --> 00:29:18,390
information he's getting from me which

655
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:20,940
is fundamentally inconsistent with his

656
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:25,050
own cherished beliefs will speed up his

657
00:29:32,210 --> 00:29:28,250
blood pressure he starts to sweat

658
00:29:34,100 --> 00:29:32,220
anxiety sets in and and to offset this

659
00:29:36,799 --> 00:29:34,110
anxiety the skeptic will try to

660
00:29:38,930 --> 00:29:36,809
rationalize the saying oh you can't be

661
00:29:41,690 --> 00:29:38,940
right you can't be right because you

662
00:29:44,150 --> 00:29:41,700
know all my life I I didn't believe in

663
00:29:46,820 --> 00:29:44,160
this and you you know I can't be wrong

664
00:29:49,250 --> 00:29:46,830
so this anxiety this this intense

665
00:29:52,910 --> 00:29:49,260
anxiety the accepted things hick remove

666
00:29:56,330 --> 00:29:52,920
it by rationalizing trying to dilute

667
00:29:58,340 --> 00:29:56,340
himself what he believes in it's correct

668
00:30:00,830 --> 00:29:58,350
well moreover this is something that we

669
00:30:03,590 --> 00:30:00,840
all experience if we're honest about it

670
00:30:05,660 --> 00:30:03,600
and I you know regretfully can look back

671
00:30:07,310 --> 00:30:05,670
at times when you know I think I'm a

672
00:30:10,130 --> 00:30:07,320
pretty open-minded person but there's

673
00:30:12,790 --> 00:30:10,140
been times when when this is just how

674
00:30:15,590 --> 00:30:12,800
we're all wired you know we're all

675
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:15,600
navigate through these complicated lives

676
00:30:20,990 --> 00:30:17,250
that we have and we think we do a pretty

677
00:30:24,650 --> 00:30:21,000
good job at it so we're pretty well when

678
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:24,660
to these ideas and beliefs that we have

679
00:30:28,370 --> 00:30:26,370
and it's no wonder that when they're

680
00:30:32,419 --> 00:30:28,380
challenged we kind of freak out a little

681
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:32,429
bit it depends entirely how open a

682
00:30:38,750 --> 00:30:35,970
person is to new in information and but

683
00:30:41,210 --> 00:30:38,760
there are reasons for some people to be

684
00:30:44,990 --> 00:30:41,220
aggressive against the paranormal

685
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:45,000
as I said before there I gave nine

686
00:30:50,529 --> 00:30:48,570
reasons and you have those one of the

687
00:30:52,580 --> 00:30:50,539
number six this is about the primary

688
00:30:56,029 --> 00:30:52,590
motivation and perhaps is for money

689
00:30:57,500 --> 00:30:56,039
power status and their job is some time

690
00:30:59,029 --> 00:30:57,510
and you know I think that's an

691
00:31:03,740 --> 00:30:59,039
interesting one but I think that is

692
00:31:06,980 --> 00:31:03,750
often a subconscious motivation in that

693
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:06,990
you know they've run through the formula

694
00:31:10,460 --> 00:31:08,610
and how this works and what it would

695
00:31:13,340 --> 00:31:10,470
mean to really take this other position

696
00:31:15,260 --> 00:31:13,350
and they don't even have to bring it up

697
00:31:16,549 --> 00:31:15,270
to a conscious level to know that's not

698
00:31:17,810 --> 00:31:16,559
going to be good for them but I'll tell

699
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:17,820
you the last one I wanted to hit at

700
00:31:22,070 --> 00:31:19,530
because I hit on because I got a kick

701
00:31:25,970 --> 00:31:22,080
out of it is number nine you say is

702
00:31:28,250 --> 00:31:25,980
being spiritually [\h__\h] tell us about

703
00:31:31,370 --> 00:31:28,260
that what do you mean well we do a

704
00:31:33,529 --> 00:31:31,380
little research and there's a very

705
00:31:36,909 --> 00:31:33,539
spiritual advanced teacher from the

706
00:31:41,779 --> 00:31:36,919
afterlife very very highly credible

707
00:31:45,830 --> 00:31:41,789
teacher who says that those skeptics are

708
00:31:48,380 --> 00:31:45,840
may not be spiritually advanced enough

709
00:31:50,539 --> 00:31:48,390
for them to understand what what what is

710
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:50,549
going on about the afterlife and you

711
00:31:54,500 --> 00:31:52,770
point out in in the book or in on the

712
00:31:57,799 --> 00:31:54,510
website this is on your website that you

713
00:32:00,440 --> 00:31:57,809
just don't mean religious or the

714
00:32:03,230 --> 00:32:00,450
spiritual in the traditional sense you

715
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:03,240
mean just a certain kind of openness

716
00:32:08,060 --> 00:32:05,730
that we can't quite put our finger on

717
00:32:10,250 --> 00:32:08,070
why people are more open in that way but

718
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:10,260
some people are and some people are just

719
00:32:15,620 --> 00:32:12,330
totally shut down to any kind of

720
00:32:18,890 --> 00:32:15,630
experience that is outside of their

721
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:18,900
immediate kind of here and now why

722
00:32:23,870 --> 00:32:20,850
that's right and that there's one thing

723
00:32:26,690 --> 00:32:23,880
I'd like to remind your listeners and

724
00:32:31,279 --> 00:32:26,700
especially those who those skeptics is

725
00:32:33,980 --> 00:32:31,289
that we have the evidence the absolute

726
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:33,990
irrefutable evidence that consciousness

727
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:36,450
survives that's no question about that

728
00:32:42,020 --> 00:32:38,490
right we know what where we're heading

729
00:32:45,399 --> 00:32:42,030
and we have some of the most brilliant

730
00:32:48,470 --> 00:32:45,409
and most intelligent scientists who

731
00:32:50,630 --> 00:32:48,480
after they investigated conceded they

732
00:32:52,940 --> 00:32:50,640
said yes they had or open-minded enough

733
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:52,950
to say yes the afterlife here what we

734
00:32:59,149 --> 00:32:54,570
accept him right

735
00:33:02,060 --> 00:32:59,159
but there isn't one parent one scientist

736
00:33:05,810 --> 00:33:02,070
one closed-minded scientist who wrote a

737
00:33:08,590 --> 00:33:05,820
book saying why the afterlife cannot

738
00:33:11,899 --> 00:33:08,600
exist there isn't one genius

739
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:11,909
close-minded skeptic to show that that

740
00:33:18,289 --> 00:33:15,690
the the afterlife cannot exist you know

741
00:33:23,419 --> 00:33:18,299
we have hundreds and hundreds of books

742
00:33:26,869 --> 00:33:23,429
by long very intelligent scientists why

743
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:26,879
they accepted the afterlife and yet

744
00:33:31,639 --> 00:33:29,730
there isn't one book well counselor I'd

745
00:33:35,690 --> 00:33:31,649
say that's a pretty good that's summary

746
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:35,700
closing argument Wendy tell us what else

747
00:33:40,999 --> 00:33:38,610
folks might find in a lawyer presents

748
00:33:43,310 --> 00:33:41,009
the evidence for the afterlife and tell

749
00:33:43,850 --> 00:33:43,320
us a little bit about the website as

750
00:33:46,460 --> 00:33:43,860
well

751
00:33:48,860 --> 00:33:46,470
Victor's amacom because I know you were

752
00:33:50,509 --> 00:33:48,870
involved heavily both in the writing of

753
00:33:52,669 --> 00:33:50,519
the book and in maintaining the website

754
00:33:55,549 --> 00:33:52,679
and the newsletter that you all put it

755
00:33:58,279 --> 00:33:55,559
well thanks Alex well yes the one of the

756
00:34:00,889 --> 00:33:58,289
things about the book is we tried to

757
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:00,899
write it in plain English without any

758
00:34:06,649 --> 00:34:03,690
any technical terms which we

759
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:06,659
deliberately kept in mind that many of

760
00:34:12,109 --> 00:34:09,210
our readers these days are coming from

761
00:34:15,020 --> 00:34:12,119
languages other than English and so

762
00:34:16,909 --> 00:34:15,030
we've tried to have short sentences the

763
00:34:19,339 --> 00:34:16,919
other thing in the book is we've started

764
00:34:22,490 --> 00:34:19,349
off with the common experiences that

765
00:34:24,559 --> 00:34:22,500
people have things that are people will

766
00:34:27,500 --> 00:34:24,569
talk about and people are talking much

767
00:34:29,990 --> 00:34:27,510
more about those experiences of after

768
00:34:33,619 --> 00:34:30,000
death contacts how to recognize and

769
00:34:35,690 --> 00:34:33,629
after death contact how to have how to

770
00:34:38,599 --> 00:34:35,700
help somebody who's had a near-death

771
00:34:41,079 --> 00:34:38,609
experience all of those very very

772
00:34:43,879 --> 00:34:41,089
frequently experience things like

773
00:34:47,990 --> 00:34:43,889
deathbed visions and how they can help

774
00:34:51,290 --> 00:34:48,000
people who are dying the website itself

775
00:34:55,339 --> 00:34:51,300
has a lot more research-based and we

776
00:34:59,530 --> 00:34:55,349
have assembled a lot of videos to make

777
00:35:01,670 --> 00:34:59,540
it easier for people to actually see the

778
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:01,680
experimenters I think when you see

779
00:35:05,720 --> 00:35:03,810
people on video you can get a sense of

780
00:35:07,130 --> 00:35:05,730
their credibility you get more

781
00:35:09,850 --> 00:35:07,140
information than just

782
00:35:14,300 --> 00:35:09,860
watching rereading what they have said

783
00:35:16,970 --> 00:35:14,310
the the book is available now of course

784
00:35:18,590 --> 00:35:16,980
as you mentioned on amazon.com but the

785
00:35:20,780 --> 00:35:18,600
other thing we'd like to mention to

786
00:35:23,300 --> 00:35:20,790
people is that we have an earlier

787
00:35:25,250 --> 00:35:23,310
version of the book on the website which

788
00:35:27,830 --> 00:35:25,260
is available free of charge that they

789
00:35:30,140 --> 00:35:27,840
can download the other thing on the

790
00:35:33,020 --> 00:35:30,150
website is we they can sign up for our

791
00:35:35,900 --> 00:35:33,030
weekly Friday report every Friday we

792
00:35:40,570 --> 00:35:35,910
send out a report on the latest research

793
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:40,580
and interesting topics on paranormal and

794
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:43,770
afterlife research which has links to a

795
00:35:48,740 --> 00:35:46,770
lot of videos we have thousands of

796
00:35:51,620 --> 00:35:48,750
people from all over the world subscribe

797
00:35:53,780 --> 00:35:51,630
to that report and they get a great deal

798
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:53,790
out of it well great it's wonderful work

799
00:35:57,770 --> 00:35:55,890
that you've done and I really appreciate

800
00:35:59,530 --> 00:35:57,780
the book I think it's out and very

801
00:36:02,300 --> 00:35:59,540
nicely done I encourage anyone

802
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:02,310
obviously it's free and available on the

803
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:04,890
website but you can also grab a copy and

804
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:07,530
give it to someone and really open them

805
00:36:11,780 --> 00:36:10,290
up to this Victor Wendy thank you both

806
00:36:13,700 --> 00:36:11,790
so much for joining me today on

807
00:36:17,450 --> 00:36:13,710
skeptical all right thank you Alex

808
00:36:19,490 --> 00:36:17,460
thanks thanks again to Victor and Wendy

809
00:36:21,860 --> 00:36:19,500
Zammit for joining me today on skeptic

810
00:36:24,770 --> 00:36:21,870
oh I have a couple of questions on my

811
00:36:28,340 --> 00:36:24,780
tee up as a result of this interview the

812
00:36:31,220 --> 00:36:28,350
first has to do with Victor's legal

813
00:36:33,590 --> 00:36:31,230
approach to these issues and it strikes

814
00:36:36,020 --> 00:36:33,600
me as having a certain truth to it I

815
00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:36,030
mentioned in the lead-in the part about

816
00:36:40,660 --> 00:36:38,250
expert witness and I think that really

817
00:36:43,210 --> 00:36:40,670
is an important part of the near-death

818
00:36:46,190 --> 00:36:43,220
experience as well as these other

819
00:36:48,590 --> 00:36:46,200
experiences that science often throws up

820
00:36:49,940 --> 00:36:48,600
their arms and says gee how we can't get

821
00:36:52,430 --> 00:36:49,950
our arms around these these are

822
00:36:54,650 --> 00:36:52,440
anecdotal and it always struck me as

823
00:36:57,590 --> 00:36:54,660
being completely out of sync with the

824
00:37:00,350 --> 00:36:57,600
way that our society operates but we

825
00:37:02,690 --> 00:37:00,360
trust or don't trust people in every

826
00:37:04,670 --> 00:37:02,700
walk of life in politics certainly in

827
00:37:06,500 --> 00:37:04,680
the legal system as Victor points out

828
00:37:10,010 --> 00:37:06,510
and we seem to have honed our skills

829
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:10,020
pretty well at deciding what accounts

830
00:37:14,690 --> 00:37:12,570
are reasonable what accounts are true we

831
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:14,700
have all sorts of systems even social

832
00:37:20,580 --> 00:37:17,970
science systems to determine that so

833
00:37:23,940 --> 00:37:20,590
let's probe into that a little bit

834
00:37:26,700 --> 00:37:23,950
and and re-examine the role that witness

835
00:37:29,100 --> 00:37:26,710
testimony might play in answering some

836
00:37:30,540 --> 00:37:29,110
of these questions the second question I

837
00:37:32,970 --> 00:37:30,550
tee up has to do with government

838
00:37:35,010 --> 00:37:32,980
involvement and we just kind of stumbled

839
00:37:37,170 --> 00:37:35,020
across this in the interview but I think

840
00:37:40,770 --> 00:37:37,180
it's very significant to again go back

841
00:37:43,410 --> 00:37:40,780
and revisit the account of former US

842
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:43,420
President Jimmy Carter where he walks in

843
00:37:47,010 --> 00:37:45,850
on a remote viewing session one that

844
00:37:49,710 --> 00:37:47,020
turned out to be extraordinarily

845
00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:49,720
successful and impossible to explain in

846
00:37:54,090 --> 00:37:51,910
normal means so there's so many parts to

847
00:37:56,550 --> 00:37:54,100
this but one there was an active program

848
00:37:59,400 --> 00:37:56,560
to was getting results and then three

849
00:38:01,200 --> 00:37:59,410
most importantly we have to square that

850
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:01,210
with the fact that we live with a

851
00:38:07,460 --> 00:38:04,330
position of official denial on this I

852
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:07,470
think that impossible to resolve

853
00:38:14,430 --> 00:38:10,450
contradiction between the official story

854
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:14,440
and the reality of how SCI is used in

855
00:38:19,410 --> 00:38:16,810
our military in our government is

856
00:38:21,630 --> 00:38:19,420
something that I'd like the probe so I

857
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:21,640
guess the question would be what do you

858
00:38:27,570 --> 00:38:25,090
make of that how involved are US and

859
00:38:29,580 --> 00:38:27,580
other governments in the application of

860
00:38:32,130 --> 00:38:29,590
these kinds of extended human

861
00:38:34,230 --> 00:38:32,140
consciousness including SCI that we've

862
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:34,240
talked about so if you'd like to weigh

863
00:38:39,060 --> 00:38:36,970
in on any of those questions or other

864
00:38:43,140 --> 00:38:39,070
questions the place to do that is The

865
00:38:46,500 --> 00:38:43,150
Skeptical website it's at sk EPT ICAO

866
00:38:49,110 --> 00:38:46,510
comm you'll find a comment section there

867
00:38:52,020 --> 00:38:49,120
or a link to the forum which is quite

868
00:38:54,240 --> 00:38:52,030
popular and you can pop over and join a

869
00:38:55,230 --> 00:38:54,250
dialogue over there of course while

870
00:38:58,500 --> 00:38:55,240
you're at the web site you can also

871
00:39:00,930 --> 00:38:58,510
check out our over 200 previous episodes

872
00:39:03,210 --> 00:39:00,940
of skeptical all available for free

873
00:39:05,790 --> 00:39:03,220
download from the website and through

874
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:05,800
iTunes well that's going to do it for

875
00:39:10,350 --> 00:39:07,690
this episode have a number of

876
00:39:12,990 --> 00:39:10,360
interesting projects and interviews in

877
00:39:15,570 --> 00:39:13,000
the works I hope you'll stay with me for